Comments on Catholic and Reformed: Covenant, Consequence and Intent: A Second Exchang...

This posting has bugged me ever since I first read...

2009-06-11T16:45:18.311-04:00

This posting has bugged me ever since I first read it. I dislike the idea of a covenant for this reason, but one central assumption of Stockton is patently false.

This concept is that "the Archbishop of Canterbury is intent on imposing a covenant upon the Churches of the Anglican Communion." This is not clear; if this were the case, I think that the debacle created by ABC's parliamentary muddle would have never happened because Williams would have never let it happen. I think he likes the idea of a Covenant because it would make dispute resolution simpler in the Communion, but his idea from the start is for the full inclusion of those in same-sex relationships in the life of the church (as evidenced by such as The Body's Grace and his correspondence with Deborah Pitt.) If the Covenant could facilitate the propagation of that idea (a possibility that orthodox Anglicans are loathe to consider) then he is fine with it. But that isn't in the cards in the forseeable future. Thus (and TEC's financial influence is doubtless a part of this) the present muddle continues unabated.

Based on his false assumption, his subsequent diatribe on how ABC regards TEC is, in simple terms, paranoia.

One thing Stockton brings up is "Despite the fact that the Church of England, bound by its status as a national institution, is well ahead of TEC on recognizing same-sex civil unions..." This is something else that orthodox Anglicans don't like to think about. No government, Tory or Labour, is going to allow the CoE to persist in the exclusion of LGBT people indefinitely. That exposes another weakness of the orthodox Anglican game plan on this continent: recognition of a separate province by the ABC and the instruments of communion. This isn't going to happen.

The central problem is that the locus of the Anglican Communion is Canterbury. As long as it's there (or anywhere else in the "West") the situation will be unstable. If Moscow can be a "Third Rome," perhaps the Anglicans need to look for a "Second Canterbury."

I also noted that Stockton slid into equating the LGBT rights movement with the civil rights movement for blacks. Given the fact that African-Americans voted 7-3 in favour of Proposition 8, he needs to spend time convincing the beneficiaries of the original civil rights movement of that equivalence. But that's hard work.

BillK: Actually most conservatives want the AC to ...

2009-06-07T22:04:59.128-04:00

BillK:
Actually most conservatives want the AC to have power over the TEC only to expel it. TEC will be allowed to do what it wants, but not as part of the AC. This is consistent with dioceses such as Pittsburgh seceding from TEC.

One thing that the exchange illustrates to me is t...

2009-06-07T16:42:44.105-04:00

One thing that the exchange illustrates to me is the futility of an Anglican Covenant. The Covenant seems to be an eccliastical exercise to hold irreconcilable positions together in tension. Ultimately, when one side or the other gets enough power, the other side will be execommunicated leaving two exclusive bodies at war with each other.

It seems ironic that both conservatives and liberals will argue discipline and or federation alternatively depending on the jurisdiction and who is in control of it. Ie, Stockton is for discipline at the GC level toward dioceses that are acting like a federation and then alternatively argues for federation and against discipline with respect to the communition.

Conservatives (those that are left) want Dioceses to have relative freedom within TEC to have separate rules, but yet they want the AC to exercise power over the TEC.

If by this year's convention you mean the ACNA one...

2009-06-07T01:46:49.936-04:00

If by this year's convention you mean the ACNA one, it is worth recalling that most of the congregations represnted would ahve left their property behind without a court case. nearly all of AMiA, the Kenyan and Ugandan churches as well as REC would fall in that category wouldn't they?
Obadiah Slope

No question as to the second point, but as to the ...

2009-06-06T14:31:06.526-04:00

No question as to the second point, but as to the first, the commitment to a legal resolution of the property dispute is frankly toxic, even when one side argues that it's only "defending" itself against legal actions (and that side happens to be the one with which I more readily identify theologically). The fact that one may have a legal case doesn't necessarily make one justified in seeking to uphold it. Why indeed do we need lawyers? If we're meant to win, we could just send a couple of representatives from the Standing Committee to "witness" and leave the decision entirely in God's hands.

It bothers me that part of the diocesan portion of our quasi-tithe is going to pay legal fees for ACNA, just as I imagine that it bothers those still within TEC that their money may be funding lawsuits. If I could find people with credibility to support a resolution at this year's convention asking for more specificity from the leadership about when it might be appropriate just to abandon property and start over, I would certainly sponsor it myself.

It is absolutely clear that - as regarding propert...

2009-06-06T13:33:19.308-04:00

It is absolutely clear that - as regarding property - there will be winners and losers: that no compromise is possible, nor indeed should be sought.

But much more importantly, on the key theological question of whether TEC should called "blessed" what 2000 years of teaching has called damned, as one of the worst of sins, there can also be no compromise: and on the evangelical side, any attempt even to consider such a compromise is not only debasing the Gospel, it is literally betraying Christ.

Bruce, It's always humbling to know you consider ...

2009-05-31T17:36:49.742-04:00

Bruce,

It's always humbling to know you consider my humble blog worth visiting. I felt rather the same as you about these exchanges, but they are testimony to the world in which we now live.

Maranatha.

Jeremy, Thank you for posting this exchange. His...

2009-05-31T16:44:13.839-04:00

Jeremy,

Thank you for posting this exchange. His last comment about winners and losers seems to me to be both sad and somewhat terrifying. My prayer is that we may be able to do what he believes cannot be done.

Blessings,

BruceR