tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35274730.post6606425557689362387..comments2023-01-29T17:07:22.133+00:00Comments on Catholic and Reformed: Diocese of Pittsburgh Convention, November 3, 2007Jeremy Bonnerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16915767119353670952noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35274730.post-23125225433275007642007-11-05T13:08:00.000+00:002007-11-05T13:08:00.000+00:00Jeremy,I think I might be the unreliable source of...Jeremy,<BR/><BR/>I think I might be the unreliable source of your misinformation about the (actually not) required supermajority for constitutional revision. I also had just "overheard" this bit of information in the moments prior to our district meeting--and so passed it along without having had the chance to verify. Apologies. Many thanks for your fine reporting and excellent reflections.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35274730.post-90421718558124522782007-11-05T08:06:00.000+00:002007-11-05T08:06:00.000+00:00Jeremy,Thank you for your insights which are graci...Jeremy,<BR/><BR/>Thank you for your insights which are gracious and helpful. I have been in conversation with a dear friend, a bishop, who has been ravaged on the blogs for the actions he has taken in an attempt to steer what he believes is a godly course through the maelstrom. He has tried not to be intimidated by either "side," and as a result has brought down stern wrath upon himself from those who say he lacks spine.<BR/><BR/>We both agree that the mess that is American Anglicanism in general, and the Episcopal Church, in particular, is a classic example of Christians (on all sides) behaving badly. It sounds as if some of that was happening at the Pittsburgh convention. It saddens me greatly.<BR/><BR/>After thirty-one years ministry in the Episcopal Church, most of which were a great joy and privilege, I was given the opportunity (by God) to return to England this year. I took it, because it also gives me the opportunity to spent my last years of active ministry doing something that will advance the Kingdom. I am not certain fighting over the tattered remnants of the Episcopal Church will allow for that. <BR/><BR/>Many, including some in the Diocese of Pittsburgh have been mad at me, and I understand their sense that I might have betrayed them. This is not so, but it reflects the antagonistic party spirit that now prevails.<BR/><BR/>I do not know you, Jeremy, but God bless you.Richard Kewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10917359509462320976noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35274730.post-39843864032325453352007-11-04T23:15:00.000+00:002007-11-04T23:15:00.000+00:00Jeremy, what you've written so resonates with me. ...Jeremy, what you've written so resonates with me. I have struggled to try to explain at BabyBlue and in conversations what it feels like - to desire reconciliation even to the last moment and be ready for it, and yet to know that one needs to stand firmly for Jesus and efforts to redefine him into some sort of what I call the "christ thingy" (where the word "christ" means sometime entirely different than Jesus Himself). <BR/><BR/>The result is a brokenheart, which we are reminded in scripture that God does not despise. It's the way of the cross, which is costly. It means loving Episcopalians and not the doctrine (and how does one work that out?). <BR/><BR/>Sandy Millar was at Truro last weekend and his sermon was a warning very much like what you've written in your post. Being Bishop Millar and British he speaks very gently, but we should make no mistake about what he says. It is a warning - aimed at the orthodox, not the liberals (which he is clear to say) for we are the ones most in danger, even at this moment, of losing our first love.<BR/><BR/>The text (and audio) of his sermon is here:<BR/>http://babybluecafe.blogspot.com/2007/10/transcript-full-text-of-bishop-sandy.html<BR/><BR/>And my commentary is here:<BR/>http://babybluecafe.blogspot.com/2007/11/reflection-more-than-these.html<BR/><BR/>But I think you are spot on. It does seem as though we are heading for the divorce courts, which in many ways describes the trial here in Virginia next week.<BR/><BR/>It may be necessary, we pray for reconciliation, but it does hurt. To pretend differently, to harden our heart, to look to who is the greatest among us - all issues Jesus dealt with amongst his own disciples(!) - is to deceive ourselves. <BR/><BR/>I think this is why the spiritual disciplines right now are so important, whatever worship style we find ourselves in. Prayer, worship, scripture reading, fellowship, fasting, solitude, silence - we may want to consider investing more into these disciplines. From what I understand, even Willow Creek is waking up to that fact. This is how we are trained. Otherwise, we start pointing fingers.<BR/><BR/>Bless you,<BR/>MaryAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17490745238430648958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35274730.post-54850682533595496712007-11-04T21:30:00.000+00:002007-11-04T21:30:00.000+00:00Josh,I think it would be a mistake to see this sol...Josh,<BR/><BR/>I think it would be a mistake to see this solely as clergy-driven. That the clergy are more solidly behind Bishop Duncan than the laity is true, but please don't imagine that lay leaders are incapable of making clear choices for themselves. You could equally argue that the members of Calvary Church are blindly following Harold Lewis. <BR/><BR/>For me, at least, the issue is not whether the pain is worth the cost; a majority of us have already reached that conclusion, for a variety of reasons. The issue is how we negotiate the divorce. Sometimes it is easier to be charitable to the losers in a struggle than to allies whom one deems insufficiently ardent. I know a number of people in Pittsburgh who fall into that category, many of whom are not in a position to speak for themselves. I do not have the same inhibition.Jeremy Bonnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16915767119353670952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35274730.post-22449176869596094792007-11-04T21:11:00.000+00:002007-11-04T21:11:00.000+00:00Schism is invariably clergy-driven.A well-loved pr...Schism is invariably clergy-driven.<BR/><BR/>A well-loved priest or bishop stands up and says, "You know, I have a real problem when the Episcopal Church..."<BR/><BR/>But some disagree; an argument ensues. Over time, agreeing with the priest becomes a loyalty test. "How can you say he doesn't know what he's talking about? Look at all the good things he's done!"<BR/><BR/>People's attitudes harden; so do their hearts. A few years later there's a vote on whether to separate. A popular leader seldom loses these votes.<BR/><BR/>But really, placing candles on the Holy Table is not a big deal. Go in peace, but be prepared to live with the consequences of your decision. They will be numerous and unpredictable. You suggest that many will be harmful; I agree. Schism is never the work of the Holy Spirit.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com